![]() We know that every milestone of civilization - the end of slavery, democracy, equal rights for women - were all utopian fantasies in the past. It’s an attempt to unlock the future, to fling open the windows of our minds.” Why should we be working backwards from utopia? Rutger Bregman Ezra KleinĪt the beginning of the book, you have this great line, “This book isn’t an attempt to predict the future. The great achievements that they’re so happy about have often been achieved by the social justice warriors of the past. It seems quite ironic to me that the Steven Pinkers of today don’t like social justice warriors. He doesn’t show all the struggles and the fights, and the battles for power that went on. ![]() I would say he has a more sanitized view of history. So where do you and Pinker differ? Rutger Bregman This is a very Steven Pinker-ish argument, but where he uses that history to push us to value the system we have, you use it to argue for a radical departure of the system we have. ![]() For roughly 99 percent of the world’s history, 99 percent of humanity was poor, hungry, dirty, afraid, stupid, sick and ugly.” ![]() ![]() In Utopia for Realists, you write, “in the past, everything was worse. A partial transcript, edited for length and clarity, follows. You can listen to our full conversation by subscribing to The Ezra Klein Show wherever you get your podcasts, or streaming it below. ![]()
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